Stones Cry Out

FYI. I featured this post on SmartChristian.com/blog. Andy

Bill Maher is an idiot and is on his way to hell.

Wow.

Jim, Bill did clarify his remarks and said that he does not mean that he doesn't believe in God, only that his words are attributed to those who follow "religion." This goes back to your/my posts on atheiesm and pantheism. Maher seems to think that so long as you create your own god and don't fellowship in an organized religion, you are a-okay!

There is nothing new or original in Maher's expression. Humanism has nowhere to go after they choose their lifestyle and its appetites and their needful justifications. (Every former humanist knows what I'm talking about.)

Perhaps if we Believers lived a more bold committed lifestyle they might see the Lord's worthiness in us. Too often, what they see is a weak wimpy going through weekly religious rituals.

Jim, Bill did clarify his remarks and said that he does not mean that he doesn't believe in God, only that his words are attributed to those who follow "religion." This goes back to your/my posts on atheiesm and pantheism. Maher seems to think that so long as you create your own god and don't fellowship in an organized religion, you are a-okay!

Or another way of looking at it is that Maher thinks that it's okay to believe in God so as long as you don't really believe in God.

As a point of clarification: Bill Maher is certainly on his way to hell, but I hope he doesn't arrive there! People in "religion" won't reach him, but I'll pray the hound of heaven will track him down.

I've actually enjoyed Maher over the years, but these comments on religion and on evangelicals are over the top.

“Fools and children tell the truth,” and when he describes religion per se, he seems right on the mark. What was the Reformation but a break from the chains of corruption, decay and excessive traditionalism of Roman Catholicism? How about ignorance, for in my younger years I had a Catholic friend who was forbidden, by his priest, to read the Bible. How about the religion of Islam?

I wish we could simply ignore people like Ward Churchill, Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, Michael Moore, Sean Penn, Tim Robbins, Oprah (I don't think she is like the others. I just think she is annoying), and Howard Dean, and they would vanish. Maybe they would. We just all need to believe and clap our hands. Poof!

I don't understand why we as Christians are so threatened by people like this. You wish they would disappear? Guys, this is our mission field. As long as we keep responding in this manner, I won't have much to blame them for when they make such comments.

Furthermore, for one man to say about another that he is on his way to hell is way too judgemental. You really have no idea what his relationship is with God or was in the past. He's obviously been hurt by religion at some point. How many people at the day of judgement will say "Lord, Lord" and will be told "I never knew you"? That verse alone tells us that we really have no idea who is saved and who is not. Our job is to love our neighbors, pray, and preach the gospel.

Ray, I think a little fire and brimstone is very Biblical.

You say,

You really have no idea what his relationship is with God or was in the past. He's obviously been hurt by religion at some point. How many people at the day of judgement will say "Lord, Lord" and will be told "I never knew you"? That verse alone tells us that we really have no idea who is saved and who is not.

Actually, I think that verse applies to those who proclaim Christ, but do not have a relationship with Him; not those who openly reject Christ. To say "Lord, Lord" I think that means you have to have a belief in Christ. The added context of performing miracles and prophesying lead me to believe that these people did God's work and proclaimed His name, but lacked a submissive relationship.

Christ has words for those who openly reject Him: "Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).

I don't mind Jim telling it the way it is. The measure for being judgmental is laid out in scripture: "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard or measure, it shall be measured to you." (Matt 7:1&2)

I don't know about Jim, but I would be okay being on the receiving end of that judgment. Mahrer has publicly rejected the gospel (rejects notion of Heaven and Hell); it is safe to say that he is on the path to Hell. I have publicly proclaimed Christ and therefore I am not subject to Matthew 10:33. But, I do work out my own salvation with fear and trembling, praying that I am not one of those who cry "Lord, Lord, but..."

You are correct though in that our job is to love God, our neighbors, pray, and fulfill the Great Commission. Part of preaching the Gospel is preaching Hell. Jesus exemplified this point throughout the gospels.

This is a good and welcomed debate - and I sure hope your having a fabulous time with your wife as you travel the world! Thanks for stopping in!

Thanks Rick.

Do you really think a response like Jim's is going to convince people like Maher (or people we know personally) of our love for him?

Most of the fire and brimstone I see coming from Jesus was directed at the Pharisees. To the Samaritans and the Gentiles he broke almost every social custom possible in order to create relationships with them.

And there is a difference between preaching hell and calling someone an idiot and telling them they are going to go there.

I lean toward Ray's point of view. :-)

That said, I'm no fan of Bill Maher.

Ray, I won't presume to speak for Jim and probably would have chosen different words, but I'll say a few words as they come to me (in other words, this is a stream of consciousness comment).

You mentioned the Pharisees - true, Christ did make an example of them and even called them names! (brood of vipers - Matthew 12:33). But he also made examples of the Sadducees.

I would consider Bill Mahrer, with his statements, a prime example of a cultural Sadducee. The Saducees were cultural and political leaders in Israel, but they denied miracles and afterlife. The Pharisees were highly "religious" per Mahrer's definition.

In my first comment on this post, I pointed out that Bill clarified his remarks and made it clear that he was not talking about everyone who believes in "god." I think this is where my post on athiesm/pantheism comes into play: The cultural elite are proclaiming the gospel of "everything goes," while lumping Christ's followers in with today's Pharisees (religious hypocrites). I'll bet that the Sadduccees of Christ's time viewed John the Baptist and Christ, and their followers as closer in theology to the Pharisees than to themselves.

Because Mahrer is a public figure, and a cultural/media/elite leader, he should be used as an example. Jesus made examples of the Pharisees. He also extended love to the one (Nicodemus) who approached Him with an open heart (John 3: 1-21).

Perhaps we should immitate Christ and make examples of today's cultural Sadducees (even calling them names when called for), always leaving open the door for the seekers among them?

Unfortunately I don't think the analogy between atheists and the Sadducees holds water. True, the Sadducees didn't believe in the Resurrection but they were members of the Jewish religious community. They were priests, essentially - they just held that only the Mosaic written law was scripture. This is obviously completely different from both atheism and all of those who are opposed to religion.

Maher's brand of atheism is a distinct, modern breed - one that I believe is a direct response to the way people have been treated by the church. It is for this reason we need to show less fire and brimstone and more love and humility to these people.

Repentence on our part wouldn't hurt either. I constantly find myself apologizing on behalf of the church to those who have been hurt by the church.

Ray, I don't think Maher is claiming to be an athiest. The context of his words left out of Jim's post (and most recdent discussions of his comments) is that he doesn't want others to think he doesn't believe in God (i.e., doesn't want to be called an athiest). His beef is with: 1) "religion;" and 2) evangelicals.

Maybe I'm suggesting that, without a belief in miracles and the afterlife, the Sadducees were more cultural and political (they emphasized their importance, influence, and dominance in the Sanhedrin) than "religious." Kind of like today's liberal Jews who are very active in their Synagogues, but largely deny God as revealed in the Torah v. Orthodox Jews who are very "religious."

I'm also suggesting that the Saducees, by denying God's power in miracles and resurrection, are closer to the Matthew 10:33 folks, and the Pharisees were closer to the "Lord, Lord, but..." folks (Matt 7:22).

Jesus did not mince words with the Jewish elite of His time. He used derisive language and even mocked them publicly.

What makes us think that Jesus would deal any differently with today's cultural elite, when these folks are leading people astray? I'm sure he would deal with today's "religious" elite in the same way.

Would he not use the words of our elite as pedogogical examples for instruction in righteousness? Would he not communicate to His sheep and the world that if they follow and imitate the likes of Bill Mahrer (a member of today's cultural elite) they will be following them to Hell?

As His mouthpiece on earth, I believe that we are to fully stand against, and make an example of, the elite who are leading our children to Hell. I think that Bill's recent outburst of hate speech towards evangelicals (lumping us in with the "religious," or the Pharisees as you might say) is the result of Christians doing what they are called to do and is a fulfillment of Matthew 5:11:

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say
all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."

Maybe it's just a difference in our fundamental assumptions. I don't feel threatened or persecuted in the least by people like him. I'm more interetested in finding out what's really bothering them and creating a relationship where they can see Christians as different from what they assume. And it seems to be working so far.

Interesting, Ray.

Do you think Jesus was concerned with understanding what was bothering the Sadducees and Pharisees? Of course, He knew their hearts, but what about his disciples? The example he was giving to them who did not know their hearts?

I don't feel threatened by Mahrer personally, but I wonder about the rest of God's flock?

Maybe Matthew 18:6-7 are applicable here. Christ said, "whosoever shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!" (Matt 18:6-7). He seems to be more worried about his flock, than a non-believer. Maybe, perhaps then you are right about the difference in fundamental assumptions.

We are commanded communicate with others in love, as Jesus did, one-on-one with Nicodemus, while confronting evil and warning the flock. Again, I probably wouldn't have called Mahrer an "idiot," but I have no problem telling people publicly that he is on the path to Hell, because he is and of that fact there should be no doubt.

(BTW - we should not presume to know Jim's heart in use of the word "idiot" - he's revised his post to make clear that he was not trying to disparage Mahrer as an individual, but to diminish his remarks.)

Ray, as the Lord leads you. I praise God for the the fruit from your ministry reaching out to those who have been offended by religion or other Christians.

In fact, I've seen that fruit as well. I don't run around wearing Jesus Freak shirts or carrying my 6-inch leather Bible to make it obvious that I am a Christian. I patiently wait on the Lord to bring opportunities to share.

At school, I'm "in the closet" so to speak. At work, less so, but it took time for God to establish me as a professional and build relationships. I make great marks, have excelled professionally, and have earned the respect of most of my peers and professors, God has used worldly accomplishments to open doors to people who otherwise would have an entirely different view of an "evangelical right wing Christian."

In this medium, I have no problem saying that Bill Mahrer that He is on the road to hell, because I trust that God is sovereign. Bill's salvation/condmenation does not depend on me, but on Him. Should Bill still be open to the gospel, God will use the right person (it may be you Ray) to reach him for Christ, regardless of what he thinks about me, Jim, or other Christians. That's a testament to His power and grace!

Okay, I really have to get back to school work now. This was fun.

Thanks for the good discussion, Ray and Rick.
I've amended the post and I'm going to move on to something else. We're all on our way to hell until Christ intercedes. I think that message is important, but I'm not given to using it much in addressing those who don't know Him.

I've actually dealt with Bill Maher in my work. As I've said, I've enjoyed him over the years. My original use of the opening line in the post was a device to illustrate how ridiculuous it can be to simply speak your mind without any regard for social graces. That's what Maher does all the time to make his points. My approach was misunderstood by some readers. And I agree that the best way to draw skeptics to Christ is through counterintuitive love and reasoned persuasion.

I'm not threatened by people like Maher. But his bluster needs to be addressed and corrected.

I appreciate the good dialogue.

Are you people serious? You actually think that this guy is "going to go to hell" for calling it how it is.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Religion is nothing but another means of control. You people are pawns. What a joke.

I think Bill has got it right although he might not realise it. Religion is kind of crazy and does rob you of your senses. It's not religion that enlightens and that's certainly not what God is calling us into - Bill it's RELATIONSHIP with the Omniscient ONE that enlightens. I do too hope the Hound of Heaven runs you down and captures your heart.

Is this piped in from a half-way house or something? Why don't you guys try the "judge not, less ye be judged" path? Or is that too old testament for you? Religion is scare tactics. Just like AA and George W. Bush and his terrorist ravings. I have just as much “faith” in my non-belief as you have in yours. 50/50 odds your right, 50/50 odds I’m right. Fear of the unknown rules your lives. It doesn’t rule mine.Why is it the people that say they are so full of the holy spirit are really full of fear? You can't possibly lead your life according to the teachings of Jesus. At least 75% of you probably support Bush in Iraq.Why am I telling you this? You’re hopelessly brain-washed.

Calling someone an "idiot" (and we all know how you meant it, but please, keep on spinning) really does plenty to advance your cause. It seems very Christ-like to me, honestly. I'm sure he'd approve. I also love how you've decided he's going to hell based on his discontent with "religion". Again, very much an enlightened position. I think you and Pat Robertson should get together and decide who else the Lord hates and plans to punish.

Bill is no idiot. You may say he is, but you must admit that he is a successful idiot. I'm not one to talk down on Christians or any other religious group, but many people are just tired that religious people think that they have everything figured out aboout how everyone should live and what happens when we die. With all of the debate on religion, God, Jesus, Allah etc., it should be obvious that people will never agree on religion. I don't think that religion is a necessity. Other living creatures seem to do very fine without religion. You also never hear of an animal that broke a commandment or an animal that has sinned. The fact that someone will rely to this post in such a way that it will cause a debate is enough reason for ME to belive that God, Jesus, Allah, etc., don't even matter. It's like freedom. If we all are not free, then WE are not really free. If we all can't agree on one religion, then it doesn't even matter. That is, in my book anyway. Bill is just doing something that Christians have been doing for many years. He is speaking his mind and he is not afraid to do so. If you forget that you are a Christian for just a moment, you will see that what he is saying is coming from his heart. You will also see that he makes a lot of sense.

If you are out there Bill, I agree with your statements. Almost 100%.

Bill Maher is a raving idiot. I see no problem calling it like I see it. Just like he has the right to make asumptions about the intelligence and brain functioning of people who are religious anyone else has the right to call him on his bullshit.

Look, Maher attacks hypocrisy, arrogance and elitism. When organized religion assumes the mantle of god's manifested authority on earth. Acts in a narrow,self serving, judgemental manner and supports actions which are anathema to the teachings of Christ. It needs to be exposed and discredited. Jesus espoused pacifism and taught that war,any war is anti-christian. You will never hear Maher attack the Amish community for their true piety. You see all example and no preachiness. Yet most organized religion tends to divide people by belief and support all kinds of violence and intolerance often using the bible to justify it. You are angry with Bill Maher because he reveals your shallow philosophy.

It's topical commentary and political satire. Get a sense of humor. Or are we not in the country built on religeous freedom? Attacking religeon versus faith is and has always been two different things. How can anyone say fanaticism is ok? Someone saying it isn't, shouldn't be attacked for his free speech.

If he can criticize religions themselves and those who adhere to it, then it should be fair that people have a choice to criticize him as well. This is a free country isn't it? since that's what people who are on Mr. Bill Maher's side keep reminding those who are against him. If this country is so free then everyone should be allowed to voice his opinion without hypocrites saying "you shouldn't be saying that about him" while at the same time admitting "there is a freedom of speech." Also, contrary to what Mr. Bill Maher believes, although those who adhere to a religion have done some atrocious acts in the recent past (e.g. 9/11), those who don't adhere to any religion what so ever, or those who, even if they subscribe themselves to one but are not practicing a religious life, have caused way more damage to human society than any religion has ever done. I'll give a few examples of people who also are critical of religion and yet are of the "level-headed" type but have caused more atrocities against humanity than any modern-day church-goer.... Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong-Il, Fidel Castro...

Him generalizing all those who are adherents to a religion are in itself BIGOTRY. Not all church-goers are under some kind of mind-control that some might think. People still have the freedom to choose to abide by the rules of their church or go against them. In this country I have never seen Christians be killed for not going to church and/or for not living a religious life. If he is just referencing the Muslims who crashed into the world trade center, then he should just talk about Muslims and not blame the violent acts on all those religious.

I made reference to three stanch Atheists in the paragraph above, but that doesn't mean I believe all atheists have a mental disorder and/or are bad people. I thought bigotry was frowned upon in American society... and yes he is one because he has never EVER given the chance to let someone defend any religion and/or the concept of religion itself and is therefore only making conclusions based on selective acts he sees as proof of how bad religion is...

But actually, I see all this arguing as a crock because of the fact that since when has society ever designated this man to be a bona fide expert on religion?

I Think that Bill Maher can be funny at times, but in this life, and how we must now live it as human beings in our society today, that has grown int what it is today based on BOTH good and bad things, I often find myself disagreeing with most of views. I do believe in God, and athough I don't follow a strictly organized religion, I won't bash someone that does, because I understand it, or what it's suppossed to be.

I'v gone two two different Churches for a little while now, and both of them preached that it's not about religion at all, or about the traditions, it's about WHY you partake in the religion or tradition, because it's the same overall concept. It's just about you and God. I think the Church is different now than It was in the 70's. I've heard all the horror stories about Church, but when I went for the first time since I was 4 years old (age 23), I felt like I was at home, and had nothing shoved down my throught. I'm free to dress how I wan't, pay if I wan't to, participate in the services if I wan't, ect.

I don't boast about this much, because I don't consider it much, but I have a 140 IQ. I understand much about the world. I know why someone like Bill Maher thinks the way he thinks, but you don't have to be "stupid" to be a religious person. In a scientific way, (yes, i said the "s" word), To me, it makes more sense that God exists than if he were to not, and I don't consider myself all that "stupid".

There are no atheists in foxholes
It is easy to scoff at religion in the comfort of your safe home. I am not religious, but I respect people who are. I think religion stems more from an emotional need.

Bill is a soul walking in darkness right now. The kind of soul Christ would, and still does, seek out. Don't be too surprised if you see Bill do a complete 180 someday.
Through the grace of God he too will see and know The Truth. I just hope it's soon...for his sake.